WHO Poll
Q: 2023/24 Hopes & aspirations for this season
a. As Champions of Europe there's no reason we shouldn't be pushing for a top 7 spot & a run in the Cups
24%
  
b. Last season was a trophy winning one and there's only one way to go after that, I expect a dull mid table bore fest of a season
17%
  
c. Buy some f***ing players or we're in a battle to stay up & that's as good as it gets
18%
  
d. Moyes out
37%
  
e. New season you say, woohoo time to get the new kit and wear it it to the pub for all the big games, the wags down there call me Mr West Ham
3%
  



w4hammer 3:55 Mon Sep 8
3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
Interesting article here for the grunaid today..
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How Jim Smith’s 3-5-2 revolution at QPR altered the face of English football

For more than 20 years, managers had stuck with the rigid 4-4-2 system favoured by Alf Ramsey. But that all changed when the ‘Bald Eagle’ guided the London club to the top of the table

15 August 1987, Upton Park. West Ham v QPR on the opening Saturday of the season. West Ham had finished 15th in the First Division the previous season and QPR 16th; no-one expected much more than the usual rough and tumble of a London derby. And yet a significant piece of English football history was about to be made.

QPR lined up in a 3-5-2 system, with wing-backs, two man-to-man markers in central defence and a sweeper. It was the first time a major club side in England had opted for the formation as a first-choice strategy and, perhaps more significantly, it worked. QPR won 3-0, and went on to win six and draw one of their opening seven games. In a world that had been dominated by 4-4-2 since the 1960s, this was a radical departure and it took QPR to the top of the league.

“I first got the idea from watching European football on the TV, particularly the Germans,” said QPR’s manager, Jim Smith, who was already 18 years into his eventful management career. “I thought it was a great way to play.”

When I asked whether he went over to Germany to watch matches or consult with other managers, he laughed. “At Oxford, they couldn’t afford to send you to Carlisle,” he said. It was when he’d been manager of Oxford United in the early eighties, though, that he first tried playing with three at the back.

“In particular games,” he said, “when we were in trouble and needed a goal, we’d go three at the back, and push another man up into the attack to go 3-4-3. I can remember some games where it helped us to get a draw from a defeat, or a win from a draw.” Before he left for QPR in 1985, Oxford gained successive promotions from the Third Division to the First. Smith doesn’t believe the system was particularly significant in their success, as they only used it on half a dozen occasions, but he’d become convinced of its usefulness.

After finishing 13th and 16th in his first two seasons at QPR, Smith decided to take the plunge. “At the time, in England, there was such a lot of hostility about a sweeper system,” he said. “I told my coach, Peter Shreeves, and the players that I wanted to go to a three, and they didn’t like the idea at all. I had to promise that we’d go back to a four if it didn’t work.”

Before the opening league game, Smith was very aware that the new formation was unlikely to survive a defeat. He got lucky. “In pre-season, I’d bought Paul Parker from Fulham as a wing-back, but I got a bit worried because West Ham had Cottee up front, who was very fast,” he said. “Parker had a lot of pace and I decided to use him as my marker instead. It turned out that he was ideally suited to the position. That game was the making of him, really, and he went on to become an England player.”

Behind Parker and the solid Alan McDonald, Smith used Terry Fenwick as his sweeper. “He was a leader and organiser, and loved that position. It’s also important in the system that you have defenders who don’t mind going wide, to help the wing-back if necessary. Most centre-backs don’t like it, but Fenwick and Parker were comfortable.”

Success bred confidence, and although they were knocked off the top by a 4-0 defeat at Anfield, Rangers maintained their form and finished the season fifth. Bewildered teams struggled to contain their wing-backs, although as the season progressed, other managers gradually developed a counter-strategy. “They’d use wingers to double up on the wing-back,” Smith explained. “If you’re on top of your game, one of the three can go across to help, and the other full-back just tucks in. The problem was, we weren’t a major club and we didn’t have a large squad, and a difficulty of the system is that you need players who are familiar with it for it to work. That’s why, later on at Derby, I got the reserve team and the youth team to play 3-5-2 as well.”

Imitators quickly followed, although, somewhat to Smith’s exasperation, mainly among clubs who were struggling. “Our goals against was very good, so many teams saw it as a way of staying in the First Division,” he said. “I always played it as an attacking system, but they’d often end up with a five at the back, which I’ve never liked, because when you get the ball, there’s no-one to pass to.” Nevertheless, Smith’s experiment was a breakthrough, if only because he had demonstrated that British players did not have to be confined to 4-4-2 or its close variants. Two years later, Bobby Robson’s successful use of 3-5-2 in the 1990 World Cup was the final endorsement.

The system has gone in and out of fashion since. Smith believed that it should be used more widely, and felt that the conservatism and caution of many English players was an obstacle. “Many of our defenders are very reluctant to try anything except what they’ve already been taught,” he said. “They also like 4-4-2 because they have people around them. Full-backs want their winger to help them out and centre-backs don’t want a sweeper behind them, they want him alongside. You need the right players who can deal with one-v-ones.”

______

I was living in oxford when he was there- and its exactly the case that he used it chase games when oxford were losing/drawing- made for exciting games - it also helped they had a couple of cracking "up-and-down" wing backs..

We could do with a manager prepared to try out something new like this now and again....

Replies - Newest Posts First (Show In Chronological Order)

Dan M 9:54 Tue Sep 9
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
That QPR game was the first defeat I ever attended.

penners28 6:30 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
we could easily play 4-1-4-1. in fact, its a pretty decent team actually.

adrian

jenkinSON reid tomkins cresswell

kouyate

downing noble song valencia

carroll

Bags 6:16 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
Adrian

Tomkins Reid

Jenkinson Song Cresswell


Noble
Downing Kouyate

Zarate

Carroll

w4hammer 6:09 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
Then they put only 1 man up front so that my 3 were marking just 1 man and we were equal numbers central midfield and out numbered on the flanks.

______
This is it- if your 1 man is lazy and doesnt make the 3 work, then they can put an extra man back into midfield/out wide.

The real clue here is fluidity- being able to switch between these systems. As a nation we seem to be incable of changing/adapting

Willtell 6:06 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
NewtonsPartyBag 5:49 Mon Sep 8
"Willtell 5:42 Mon Sep 8 Please send a CV to TitsMcGhee@whufc.com"

I would but I couldn't afford the drop in salary...

AnotherDay_SameShit 6:02 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
I thought you was staying away from here cunty?

WHUDeano 6:01 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
Keller! Another one I forgot! Point is though, none of these lads were wing backs. I guess not many kids at a young age were told they were a wing back. Not many of ours had any defensive know how though. I guess looking back, the best game I ever remember Kieron Dyer having was for England under Hoddle - maybe his debut? He was a right wing back and looked sensational.

My point however is that the only way a wing back would ever work is if it was a left back with an attacking edge - Ashley Cole, rather than a winger being asked to defend ie Impey/Downing/Sinclair. Much easier for a left back with skill to step up and overlap to put in a decent cross in than it is for a winger to take a step back and not bottle out of a 50/50 tackle.

Grumpster 5:51 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
busheyhammer85 5:36 Mon Sep 8

Ex-assistant manager and now the manager after Nick Jarvis's resignation.

We could do with Callum up front, absolute goal machine.

Far Cough 5:49 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
5-3-2 when defending 3-5-2 when attacking I thought?

NewtonsPartyBag 5:49 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
Willtell 5:42 Mon Sep 8


Please send a CV to TitsMcGhee@whufc.com

busheyhammer85 5:48 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
As a defender (well central midfielder turned central defender) i'm not a fan of 3-5-2.

However, if you have the time to practice day in day out i can see why some managers would favour it.

Eggbert Nobacon 5:45 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
Deano

I disagree on Sincs thought he grew into the role very well

Himand Keller was our best pairing at that for me

after all it's 3-5-2, not 5-3-2

Willtell 5:42 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
I managed a County League side after retiring and did an FA coaching course which was useful but dealt with more basic stuff in coaching individual skills. I knew I needed to do something revolutionary for the players to start treating me seriously rather than as an ex-team mate.

So I copied Redknapp's 3-5-2 at our lower level. I had two greased lightning wing backs that could run all day, a fast man marker, barely 6' tall to mark the usually quick 2nd striker and a big traditional 6'3" CB with another 6' ball playing CB who covered them two.

With three in midfield we dominated most games and kept winning trophies. In fact we won at least one trophy every year for 5 years until I packed it in. I love 3-5-2 but eventually opposition coaches worked out how to counter it. First they tried pushing 3 forwards up which was easy. Pulling a midfielder back to go 4-4-2 solved that.

Then they put only 1 man up front so that my 3 were marking just 1 man and we were equal numbers central midfield and out numbered on the flanks. I honestly don't think 3-5-2 can be effective again and i'm sure I remember reading somewhere that no team has ever won a major award playing 3-5-2...

Far Cough 5:41 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
Yeah, I have Vic Buckingham, managed Fulham and then eventually went to Barcelona, regarded as bit of a visionary

Eddie B 5:40 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
I remember that match. We got arse raped.

busheyhammer85 5:36 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
Striker Assistant Manager isn't he?

He knows his onions.

WHUDeano 5:35 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
Redknapp's version never really worked because he never really paid much attention to the wing back position. Much in the same way that the modern day long ball merchants disregard the full back position.

Redknapp played wingers or defensive midfielders at wing back hoping that they would adapt. Lazardis, Impey, Lomas, Sinclair all filled in the wing back position. He even stuck Dicks there once and we all winced as a young Danny Mills destroyed him in a 4-2 defeat vs Charlton.

It has always been the way with the English managers who try to introduce a new tactic at professional level when at grassroots all we are taught is the basics of 4-4-2. Always rigid. Even these days, I have no idea how youngsters are taught but I bet it's not fluid football, able to play in multiple positions.

Grassroots FA run football has been flawed since the days they took Charles Hughes ideas as the blueprint. That has even led to where west ham are today.

Anyone ever heard of Vic Buckingham?

Eddie B 5:27 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
Who's Dave Boreham?

One McAvennieeeeee 5:25 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
I remember this game. Were 3-0 down at half time. Gary BANNISTER scored and Kevin BROCK scored a beauty.

w4hammer 5:23 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
lets be honest, our 4-3-3 is never that, its

45-------------------------------------------------------------------1

or maybe
432------------------------------------------------------------------1


3-5-2 can be pulled apart with a quick agile and smart single striker- thats why only playing that way is doomed to failure in the longer term

Alex V 4:31 Mon Sep 8
Re: 3-5-2 !? seen it all before...west ham referrred too..
Maybe they had the same problems with it as we did up close. There's a reason the trend then died out for another decade or so :). I think it's a horses-for-courses formation at best these days.

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